2004 · US Southwest (Stewart's source); Sentinels of the Ether places a 2004 JSOC loss near Coyame, Mexico

The 2004 'blue on blue': JSOC against a Lockheed recovery team

Lead

Strength D · 3/10

Evidence 0/4 · Witnesses 2/3 · Backing 1/3

A named journalist's 'yes' and a detailed anonymous Lockheed insider, with Grusch's general statement on deaths as backing; no document, casualty record or physical trace is public.

Plausibility Moderate

Score 9 · 7 factors for, 0 against

Two separate channels, a named journalist and a Lockheed insider, plus Grusch's account of deaths describe a clash that both sides would bury; the details differ (who died, where) but nothing documentary contradicts it.

See the factors ↓

Unconfirmed

Part ofThe legacy program, The price of contact, The recovery teams, The squeeze

Two recovery teams clashing at night over a downed craft in the Southwest, as the 2004 'blue on blue' accounts describe it. · Illustration for uaptrail.com

Coulthart (named journalist, unnamed sources): yes, and 'not the only incident'.
Stewart's Lockheed source (anonymous): a crashed Lockheed ARV, a JSOC team, two airmen killed; Lockheed's in-house recovery team at Palmdale since the 1970s.
Sentinels of the Ether (anonymous, mixed fact and fiction): a JSOC team killed near Coyame in 2004.
Grusch (named, secondhand): personnel have been hurt and killed in a recovery.

When2004

WhereUS Southwest (Stewart's source); Sentinels of the Ether places a 2004 JSOC loss near Coyame, Mexico

In August 2024 Ross Coulthart answered 'yes' when asked whether a 2004 firefight between a JSOC unit and a Lockheed Martin recovery team over a UAP craft killed two JSOC members, adding 'and that's not the only incident'. An anonymous source who posted through John Stewart in December 2023, a former USMC and DIA analyst later a Lockheed security program manager, gives the fuller version: a Lockheed ARV crashed in the Southwest in 2004, JSOC took it for an NHI craft, the two recovery teams clashed, and two airmen were killed. Chapters from Herrera's insider's Sentinels of the Ether set a 2004 JSOC loss near Coyame, Mexico. UAP Gerb ties these together as one 'blue on blue' between rival recovery teams.

How plausible · Moderate

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Independent convergence Coulthart, Stewart's source, the Sentinels chapters and Grusch's statement point the same way.
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Fits secrecy practice A clash between a government and a contractor recovery team is exactly what would be buried.
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Access Stewart's source was a former USMC and DIA analyst, later a Lockheed security program manager read into the program.
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No gain sought The source sold nothing and went silent; Coulthart answered in one word.
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Restraint The source withheld the names; Coulthart gave no details.
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Checkable details check out A 2004 date, two deaths and a Palmdale facility give records to seek.

Plausibility weighs how well an account fits where secrecy hides the documents by design, so missing records never count against it. Strength measures what is documented. Assessed 2026-10-24.

On the record

Coulthart's AMA answer and Stewart's post are public; their sources are not.
Lockheed's Palmdale presence (Air Force Plant 42) and the Kona Blue dispute over contractor-held material are on record.

Claims

Asked whether a 2004 blue-on-blue firefight between a JSOC unit and a Lockheed Martin recovery team over a UAP craft killed two JSOC members, Ross Coulthart answered 'yes', adding 'and that's not the only incident'.Ross Coulthart 9/1/24 Discussing WD Memo, 2004 JSOC Case and Q&A Herrera encounteranonymousLeadRoss Coulthart

In 2004 a Lockheed ARV crashed in the Southwest; JSOC took it for an NHI craft and sent its own recovery team, which clashed with the Lockheed team; two airmen, both of Asian descent, were killed.Lockheed Martin Skunk Works 9/1/24 Discussing WD Memo, 2004 JSOC Case and Q&A Herrera encounteranonymousLeadJohn Stewart's source (former USMC and DIA analyst, later a Lockheed security program manager)

Lockheed has had an in-house recovery team since the 1970s, holding intact and crashed UAP at a facility in Palmdale; it reverse engineered one craft in the mid-1980s, hid it from the government, and handed back some originals while saying it could make no progress.Lockheed Martin Skunk Works Air Force Plant 42 (Palmdale)Kona Blue (DHS prospective SAP, 2011)Herrera encounteranonymousLeadJohn Stewart's source (former USMC and DIA analyst, later a Lockheed security program manager)

This clash is what Grusch refers to when he says people have been killed to keep the subject secret.Grusch on RogananonymousLeadJohn Stewart's source (former USMC and DIA analyst, later a Lockheed security program manager)

US personnel have been hurt and killed in a recovery.Grusch on Rogan Herrera encountersecondhandSourced, unconfirmedDavid Grusch

Two chapters of Sentinels of the Ether describe a JSOC team watching a human-trafficking operation near Coyame, Mexico in 2004 that is cornered and killed by the traffickers' team, which then flies to a secret base.Jake Barber Coyame incident Mexico hearinganonymousLeadHerrera's insider (Sentinels of the Ether)

The 2004 'blue on blue': JSOC against a Lockheed recovery team

How plausible · Moderate

On the record

Claims

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People and organizations

Sources

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